DentalBytes ep. 150 - From Chaos to Clarity: "Find your Zone of Genius with Nish Sampath”

[0:18] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening — whenever you're tuning in. Thank you so much for tuning in. Mark Wagner, your host, Dental Bites. I have — it's my favorite, it's my absolute favorite — when I have folks come and hang out. Today I've brought somebody in, somebody very close, somebody that has way more intelligence than I do. This conversation's going to be well over my head. Maybe.

[1:00] We'll keep it simple. Without further ado — I've got Nish Sampath here in studio. How you doing today, my friend?

[1:18] Fantastic. Glad to be here, Mark. Thank you.

[1:20] Yeah, we came in together so I already know how you're doing. Man, oh man. So like — your world — you're shoulder-to-shoulder with founders. Describe in layman's terms for the listeners a little bit about what you do, like at a 30,000 ft view. Let's start there and just see where this goes.

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Chapter 1: What Is a Fractional COO?

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[1:49] Sure. Yeah. So Switch Advisory — we are a team of fractional chief operating officers. We are a group of executives that essentially parachute into companies when they need support with their growth. They're already growing too fast potentially and they need the tools and processes in place. So we work across a broad range of industries including medical, dental, tons of technology, manufacturing, engineering, and professional services of all different types like accounting and legal. And we help get founders and CEOs out of the weeds and help them get their companies growing by pointing the ship in the right direction.

[2:37] Um, yeah, that's how I understand it. Good — I'm on the right track. That's awesome. What are some common themes you're seeing out there? First of all, cheers my friend. Thanks for coming out all the way from Calgary. What are some common themes you're seeing amongst your clients? Like why would somebody come and see you?

[3:05] It's a great question. I think there are some pretty specific inflection points that happen in a company where they're thinking, hey, we might need some external support — and we don't want an adviser just to tell us what to do, or a coach that's just going to tell you what to do from the sidelines. We want somebody in the weeds to do it with us, because we don't have the bandwidth and the time to do it ourselves. And those seem to be like: we're plateaued a little bit, we're not sure why we're stuck operationally. We know things are a little bit on fire and we're putting out the fires too often. Sometimes it's around succession planning — new leaders coming in, new leaders going out, how do we bridge the gap and help these folks succeed in the new role? Sometimes it's hypergrowth — you've bought or merged with another company, or you're frankly just doing awesome and you need to put the tools in place so you can scale effectively.

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Chapter 2: The Methodology — How Switch Gets In and Makes a Difference

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[4:10] Man, that must be some pretty interesting work. And it's all driven by people, right? Like people and systems play a big deal. Do you dissect — what's the starting out process? Do you sit down with the team and work out all the variables and take it from there?

[4:31] Yeah. I mean, we've kind of built this methodology and it helps us get into companies pretty quickly and make a little bit of a difference in a short period of time. And it's based on what we like to call agile startup tools along with corporate blueprint tools — and we combine that with a lot of the operating system functions that you find in the Entrepreneurial Operating System playbook and the Rockefeller habits. But we go into a company and we look at their value chain — so from sales and marketing through to client execution and all the way through to finance and legal at the back end. We say: where are those opportunities for improvement across the entire value chain that make sense? And then we have to prioritize that because there's probably only two or three things that are going to truly move the needle from a revenue perspective or a cost of goods sold perspective. So we've got to focus. It's all about totally focusing our energy. There's tons of stuff you can do — and frankly, that's where most leaders get lost because they know what to do. They just do too much of everything and don't directly target those hyper important opportunities for improvement. So we just figure that out.

[5:50] What are the common things you're seeing when you're getting into onboarding with a client?

[6:06] Nine out of 10 problems are people problems. Do you have the right people in the right seats? We do what we call the GWC test — which is an EOS test — which is: do those individuals get the role they're in? Do they want the role they're in? And do they have the capacity to do that work? Because you want people to have purposeful — we talked about this on the way in — people want to feel like they're having an impact, that they're valued.

[6:40] How do you circumvent that kind of thing? That must be the hardest part of the whole process.

[6:47] The biggest problem is you know leaders think the goal line is here and your team thinks the goal line is here — you're literally kicking in different directions. And so we have to line them up on the why. What is the why that everybody's fighting against?

[7:02] I love the Simon Sinek man. Like seriously — his work has informed so many genuine business models. I think if you don't have that why it's just a recipe for burnout too. Would you agree?

[7:19] 100%. I think we find staff in different companies — they're fighting so hard, they think they're winning. But their why isn't lined up with the leadership or the executive team. And you know, that leader thinks they're working really hard but not accomplishing what they want to. Your team is working really hard and they think they're accomplishing what they should. And that totally leads to burnout all the time. But if we're just fighting in the same direction because we've actually come together and said, "What is our why?" — makes life so much easier.

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Chapter 3: Flying Blind — The Data Problem

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[7:53] And what do you do in a situation where the whys are in line but the data suggests things are not going according to plan? There are a lot of folks out there that are not measuring their business from an analytical standpoint. Do you see that?

[8:22] Constantly. I mean, I think the biggest challenge is people are pretty blind to their financial situation. Even if they're making a lot of money and the business is seemingly doing well, they don't actually understand where the bleed is, what's happening in the company. But you can look at that frankly from the entire value chain — what parts of the value chain are worth measuring to tell you if you're healthy or not? And are we assigning accountabilities to people and measuring specific things against those accountabilities, so you actually know if you're doing well in your role — which is an incredibly important and satisfying piece of information to know.

[9:05] Absolutely. And I also see — to play devil's advocate — there are a lot of folks that fixate on the numbers and they sort of miss the magic, the X factor stuff that swirls around it too. Like if people are looking at their data too deeply and not what's driving the business — I think that's sort of what should be fixated on: what drives the business and where's the opportunity, and then point the ship in that direction. Too many measures is useless. Too much information almost leads to too much choice and as humans we don't deal well with choice.

[9:49] True. It's true. Like even in my world in advertising — you do not want to suggest more than three options. So simplification — how important is simplification?

[10:10] Frankly, our entire business is built on it. We're not rocket scientists. We are using very simple tools and it's truly just about exercising the muscle. People know what they should be doing. Leaders know that. The analogy we like to use is: you're going into the gym. And you can get a workout plan and go into the gym and feel really great about yourself and do it once and then you're done and you never go back. We are that individual who's in there helping you make that routine every single day. So we're doing those very simple practices on a routine basis — and that is what gets you growth and success in the long term.

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Chapter 4: Misconceptions About Fractional COOs

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[10:51] What are some of the misconceptions that you see out there about what you do — the fractional COO — like lay the foundation straight here.

[11:05] Yeah. Well, I think the biggest challenge is fractional COO is a new industry practice. So people think that maybe we are just advisers who are going to hand you over a PDF or a PowerPoint deck and tell you what you should be doing — or coach you from the sidelines on a monthly basis and say, "Here's the stuff that is important in your business." And frankly we've built our practice around being in the weeds. We actually think it's quite fun learning about companies, working with actual human beings, and making a really significant difference in their lives and their companies. I think that's the biggest misconception — they don't realize that we become a member of their organization for that 6 to 12 months or whatever that engagement period looks like.

[12:04] And it seems like identifying that inflection point is the critical moment where you come in — especially when there's mergers or anything like that happening, making sure you start off on the right track. Things are exponentially compounding over time, and if you're heading the wrong direction — how fun is that for you to come into a situation where you point these things out and you're literally giving years back to these people life-wise because their stress level, you know.

[12:37] Yeah. I mean, clients call us because they're saying, "Hey, we can't take vacation. We don't get out of our company. We're thinking about it every single night." And I get it — you're an entrepreneur, you're a business person, you're going to think about your company every night and every day. But that ability to release, trust your people, trust that the process and the machine that you've built is actually going to succeed without you sitting there day in and day out — that's truly where we win, where we can feel that joy.

[13:08] Nish, how do I do that? How do I let go?

[13:11] You know, it's tough. I think you need to sort of have the systems in place so you know you can chill out a bit. How long does it take to get there from scratch? Sometimes more than — it depends on the company and the complexity and what we're trying to solve. We were with some oral surgery clinics, for example, and that's around lining up the partners, making sure the partners are actually fighting in the same direction and that they have a clear idea of where they want to go with their partnership and their various clinics. Generally we're probably in there for 6 to 12 months, sometimes longer depending on the size and complexity. If you have a 100-person organization with multiple locations, it takes time to build that consistency of practice across different sites. But our ambition is to be able to replace ourselves effectively — we build this machine and then we hand it off to somebody to just maintain it going forward.

[14:21] Yeah. What does that look like after the fact — after you guys are said and done? Do you hear back from folks that things have fallen off track?

[14:37] There are always new variables, but we try to maintain the foundational piece of it. We also try to maintain relationships with our clients — I have three ex-client calls next week, for example, where we're just going to go through and make sure things are humming and they're continuing on with the practices that we set in place. But it's all about replacing ourselves with good human beings and making sure the rest of the team is strong.

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Chapter 5: The Four Pillars — People, Strategy, Execution, Cash

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[15:01] In your experience, what are the four pillars — people, strategy, execution, or cash — and what's the most neglected?

[15:14] That's great. I mean, I think oftentimes you'll focus on people depending on what your baseline aptitude is. If you're a people person, you'll focus on people. If you come from a financial background, you make sure the books are clean. But I would say honestly — finances, interestingly enough. Just not really understanding where the money is. And not just revenue and expenses — that's too easy. But looking at the value chain of an organization and saying: what parts of the business are generating revenue? What are the expenses? What are the cost of goods sold and operating costs associated with each part of that value chain? Are we getting the return on all of those elements in combination?

[16:03] When you're assessing growth readiness, what are the biggest red flags?

[16:09] Red flags — you don't know where you want to go. You can't grow without direction.

[16:20] Like, how hard — so part of that is finding that vision with them as well?

[16:26] We do — a lot of it is let's paint that picture. A lot of historically experts like to say let's paint the picture for 10 years out. And we've kind of shrunk that window because frankly with technology and AI and all of the disruptions today, 10 years is a long time. We only paint that picture at three years because we don't know what's going on beyond that — it's just too hard to tell. But we should be able to put ourselves in a frame that says, "Okay, here's where I want to be in three years." And then we kind of back that down and say we have very specific, tangible yearly goals. And then we back that all the way up into quarterly objectives and key results. So we only work in 90-day windows — our brains really focus on that 90-day execution cycle.

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Chapter 6: Combating Chaos

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[18:03] Are we all just kind of flying by the seat of our pants? Because my next question is about chaos. How the hell do we combat chaos? Is it a proper plan? Is it readiness for anything coming your way?

[18:47] I think there's opportunity in chaos — number one, true. But I think it kind of comes back down to maintaining some level of mental focus. There's going to be a lot of noise and you have to block it out and say, "Okay, back to what is the most important of the most important of the most important thing I'm going to do." Because chaos comes — we generate chaos in our brains because we are firing in so many different directions. We're wearing so many hats, doing so many tasks. We have these giant task lists and we think we have to do everything. And it comes back down to: you don't. Most of it isn't actually going to move the needle in your company. There are three or four things that you have to do in the next 90-day window. And if you do those, you will have a really significant impact in where you want to go.

[19:49] I think we're all our own worst enemies too. How much of the problem is self-projected?

[20:17] You know, how are you telling leaders to trust in the process and have the confidence that everything's going to be okay when everything's on the line? Are you looking at it from a psychological standpoint — addressing the type of character you're dealing with?

[20:46] Yeah. 100%. I mean, where do they want to be? What is their zone of genius? What things actually bring them energy? What takes it away? Like what keeps them up — for the good reasons. I think we have to have that conversation and assessment with each of the folks across the organization because you want to keep them in that zone of genius. You don't want to take away stuff that gives them energy.

[21:13] So you're coming in sometimes and finding out this zone of genius and the business itself might change because of it — the focuses and things?

[21:20] Yeah. I mean, we come into organizations where some of the founders — they don't want to be selling. Generally we often find founders are the best salespeople for the organization, but some of them don't want to be in that seat anymore. They did that at the onset of the company, they built it, now they want to hand it off. And maybe they like to be doing some of the grinding. We kind of put people in three different mental roles: finder, minder, grinder. Finders go and sell — so you're talking about hunters and farmers. Very similar. But in the middle there's this concept of the minder who's managing and operating the business. And there's always going to be a little bit of crossover between the roles — and I think you need that crossover because then you're understanding the parts and how they all fit together and you're being cohesive as a business.

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Chapter 7: Values Are Not Fluff

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[23:27] Yeah. So I mean for me personally I just like working with really smart people who are doing innovative things. It doesn't matter quite frankly what industry because we can find these cool innovations across industries. It's about learning all the time with really cool innovative leaders and helping them succeed.

[23:54] But once we see — for example, we worked with a company where the rainmakers didn't have confidence in their own company to execute when they sold. So they stopped selling. And we came in and after 6 months were able to clean up their account management, project management, and implementation process to a point where they said, "Okay, we can go and sell again." And one of the founders hadn't taken a day off in 3 years. And she took a month off after we left. Right? Like that's success for us — where we can come out of that and be like, okay, we actually created significant impact in a company. And we have frankly lifelong friendships with these people now because we've had the blood, sweat, and tears with them for that period of time to really change that.

[24:50] Yeah. And founders know that they're often the problem.

[24:54] Hey man, like honestly I think getting away from the finger-pointing and really — I think self-evaluation is healthy. I think people neglect to do that even — I would argue they're not happy because they're not addressing the core issues that they quite possibly are leeching into their business or their lives or everything.

[25:21] Yeah. I mean they're probably working in ways that are inconsistent with their own values. And that seems to be the challenge. And we've started to really focus on — I think I used to think the concept of values was fluff, frankly. And then I had some experiences with clients where I was like, no, it is the most important thing. We have to be incredibly clear on what the founder CEO's values are, what the company's values are, and we have to align the organization with that. We have to align people who are working in the company, the roles they're doing, and the customers that we're taking — it all has to be aligned with that set of values.

[25:57] Like I will echo that. And values aren't just like a poster up on the wall — "core values, this is what we're all about." It's how people feel on Sunday night when they've got to come back to work. That's where that stems. Values — that's how people are answering the phone. That's how we're greeting each other. If the CEO is coming in and you haven't seen them in 3 months — it's a big company, they're not on site — and they don't come in with a smile, how does that make you feel? Their presence has way more impact than they realize. They have to be concerned about how they're showing up. What kind of energy are you putting out there? How is it perceived?

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Chapter 8: Leader vs. Manager

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[27:02] Who in your mind's eye across the business world is your poster child business?

[27:17] Yeah. You know, I think there's lots of good and bad companies — that's a tough question, Mark. I've got a couple of clients that I think are doing it really well, frankly. We have a manufacturing client, we've got a marketing agency — they're doing it really well. And I think after we get them lined up and fighting in the same direction, they really dig into some of those processes, get the people on board, and they're really making a difference in their community. For me, doing well is not just the company is doing well — but we like to add a social impact element to our work.

[28:02] And so one of my previous clients, they really fit that into their entire business model. It makes it for purposeful work. You know, if we can, we should. And what you're talking — that's legacy stuff, right? Now you're working towards this entity that's also doing good beyond the confines of the walls. Like that's cool. I think if more of our species was like that, this might be a less cutthroat place, you know, if the communities are working together doing great things.

[28:42] Yeah. And frankly, we are incredibly lucky to even be in the position to start these companies, to do this work. And granted, it was an incredible amount of hard work and risk and this labor of love — but once we achieve some financial success, I think it's an important element to then share that with less fortunate individuals.

[29:05] I love it. And we even try to build it into some of our comp structures — so if there's a bonus model within the organization, we'll name charities as one of the employees that might get some bonus.

[29:34] So going back to this entity that is the business being in sync — how do you know when it's there? Is it a feeling? Is it metrics and touch points?

[29:55] Feels easy. It's rhythm. Maybe flow state. But we build a lot of it on simplicity through routine. You're not doing complicated things. You're making it easy just because you do it on a routine basis. You're having the same leadership conversations in the same method. You're looking at the same marketing metrics or KPIs across the business. You're looking at your objectives and key results and your strategy on a monthly and quarterly basis to make sure you're actually doing the work to achieve those. You're having these morning standups every morning to make sure that you are communicating with your team and the handoffs are really strong — and that you're feeling that energy and that collaboration across the team. So I think it's not a financial thing because you can do well until you don't, until things start to break underneath. It's an energy thing. Do you have that feeling of I'm constantly firefighting — or things are actually positive, I can focus on my zone of genius, I think we're going to grow, I'm hopeful? Like once you can put that CEO, founder, and leadership team in that position — that's success.

[31:12] I'm stealing that zone of genius, by the way. I love that.

[31:16] Yeah. What's the difference between a leader and a manager?

[31:25] Leader and a manager. I mean, for us, leaders are setting really strong direction. They are coaching. They're making sure that individuals have the supports required to succeed. Managers — if we're being honest — they're kind of watching over you. They're just ensuring that the daily execution is happening. And we like to kind of remove managers from management and put them in that leadership position — where you're ensuring the long-term success for that individual. You're looking out for their well-being. You're looking out for where they want to go career-wise and you're helping them get there. You're not just managing daily tasks. You become more outcomes-driven versus task-driven.

[32:12] Yeah, I love it. And looking at time differently too. Outcomes I think is key, isn't it?

[32:37] Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, even the old consulting and business models were all time-based — I charge you for an hour of my effort versus here's the impact I made. It should be impact-based and outcomes-based versus time-based.

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Chapter 9: EOS, Scaling Up, and OKRs

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[33:57] Back to Switch and your tools and frameworks — you combine EOS and Scaling Up frameworks. How do you decide which elements to lean on for each client?

[34:12] Yeah. I mean it's all kind of rooted in the Rockefeller habits — building routine within the organization. We pick based on what a company actually needs. If you go and look at some of these frameworks, unfortunately — because both of these models have been acquired by bigger companies — they're going to tell you you have to do every single piece of it. And we don't subscribe to that necessarily. Our experience has shown that we just do the things that are most relevant for a specific company based on their challenges. So you don't have to have every single piece of the structures implemented all at once. Would it be nice? Absolutely. But frankly, these take a long time — this is a lot of exercise to go through in the gym before you can actually put it all in place.

[34:58] And OKRs and scorecards are a bit of a buzzword. What are the biggest mistakes companies are making when they're trying to implement something like that?

[35:05] Too much. Always too much. I think it comes down to — yes, you can't manage what you don't measure, but what do you need to manage and what do you need to measure? From an OKR perspective, if you have too many objectives and you're trying to do too much, you will do nothing. You spread yourself too thin. People burn out. Your teams are not effective because they still have jobs to do. And so whenever we're leading these workshops, it's: thank you for this broad sheet of things we can fix — but then we've got to focus back onto that most important of the most important of the most important thing. There are only a few things we need to do every 3 months that are truly going to move the needle. And getting that laser focus is absolutely paramount to success.

[36:06] Like how much time are we just making work to be busier? I mean, we do that all the time, right? I'll find myself, after I've done the work that I know is the most important stuff — I will start giving myself more work. And I'm trying to figure out how to get to a place where I actually say, "No, I've accomplished what I actually needed to accomplish. How do I reset, relax, take a little break? It's summertime — go outside, go for a walk." And almost structure that into the conversation as: these are now the most important things — my personal, mental, and physical health. Like a tequila and a steak, right?

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Chapter 10: AI, Tools, and the Future

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[36:43] Are you following everything that is AI and all the tools that are available out there?

[36:51] I'm trying to. It's overwhelming. But I think a lot of it is — we're just looking at it too much from a tool perspective and not: are the companies actually ready for it? What do we need it for in our specific organization? Because you can get overwhelmed. There is a wild amount of tools out there and there might be one that you can spend thousands of dollars a month on — and there's a new one coming up that's free. It's growing so quickly.

[37:24] Do you think companies are going to fall behind if they're not looking at implementing some form of AI in their automation? You know, there's even — this one blew me away — a big time waste for the dental practice is the front-end reception calling up insurance companies, staying on hold, figuring out people's policies. There's now an AI that stays on hold with the insurance company and handles all that and implements it right into the practice management software. How cool is that?

[37:57] That is really cool. And there are specific, super value-adds where it takes people out of the dirty grindy stuff they don't necessarily want to do. And truly the value add is human interaction — how do you spend more time with people?

[38:13] Yeah. And I think the more that we can implement these tools and spend face-to-face time — if there's anything that COVID taught us, like yes we can do all this great online stuff, but honestly my favorite thing is having somebody come to the studio. There's this foundational human element to working with somebody face-to-face. Like how much does working from home take away from team culture — just walking over to somebody else's desk and sitting together and working on a solution for something?

[39:04] Yeah, I think it's company-specific. Like what are you doing? What kind of products are you manufacturing? How much zone time do you require as a human being? I think there are some organizations that can benefit significantly from it. But making sure you do have opportunities to break bread with someone, have a face-to-face conversation occasionally, actually create a human relationship beyond work — I think that's super powerful. And I'd love to make sure we do that quarterly at a minimum even for remote teams. How do we bring people together quarterly? Maybe volunteer together, do something really cool. Because what used to be online meetups — everybody wants in person now. They want that human interaction.

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Chapter 11: How Switch Advisory Is Evolving

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[40:23] How do you see your own business evolving in the next 3 to 5 years with the way things are going?

[40:31] Yeah. I think a lot of the tools that we develop to help facilitate work for our clients is going to be facilitated through AI realistically. And I think there's also — from our engagements, it's already starting to shift to: okay, I want to implement AI. What does that mean for my company? How do we start to engage with that? And today it's looking at your value chain — what are the processes, what can actually be optimized through technology and AI? Do you have the data available to support some of this? Is it structured? Do you have the people that are capable of using the technology appropriately? That's a big deal too.

[41:18] Yeah, that's a huge deal. Like technology is like buying a sports car — if you're not using all the gadgets inside, you're not getting the full value out of whatever tool you're spending on. And there's a lot of redundancy too — overlapping tools that kind of do the same things. And then how do you move beyond just LLM-based queries to write a story for you or a post versus agentic AI that's truly going to impact workflows in your company?

[42:04] And like what have you seen being an impactful piece that everybody should have in this day and age? Like ChatGPT at $20 a month — the amount of value — it's incredible.

[42:17] I think experimentation, right? Like if you are not riding the wave and a part of it, the wave is just going to crush you and take you over. And I think if you're too fearful of it, you're going to run into some of those challenges where you are going to get left behind very quickly. If you are experimenting, if you're curious, if you're preparing your organization and your team — not just you — because that fear, uncertainty, and doubt, that FUD can set in pretty quickly. "Oh, my job's going to go." But not necessarily true. So how do we empower people to start experimenting and using it in their daily lives and their work — so they're riding the wave versus getting rolled over by it.

[43:06] And I think if we talk about evolution itself, business takes that route too. The winners evolve. The world is not a static place. It's forever changing. And the impact that AI will have — I think it'll be bigger than the industrial revolution. I don't think people really realize what we're embarking on. It's crazy times.

[43:39] Sure. Absolutely. But change in general just has a habit of bringing on fear because people are happy — they've kind of got to this flow state. They see it as a threat to that. We become complacent. We like our daily routine. You switch it up, you introduce a new variable into the organization — even a new human — and people are like, "Whoa, what are they here for? What's going on?"

[44:08] Right. And so you've got to get ahead of some of that with your teams, with your people, and with yourself. Make sure you're just learning and experimenting. So it's not something that's being done to you — you're part of it, you're implementing it.

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Chapter 12: Community, Inner Circle, and Closing Thoughts

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[44:31] Coming into this conversation — what things were sort of resonating through your mind? What pieces were top of mind?

[44:47] Yeah. I think a lot of it is — you and I chatted about this — how do we create physical communities and do better together? I think as a lot of this technology starts to seep in, we need to come together and support one another. And I think I see things fragmenting into all these very niche specialties now. I was actually the other day with a couple of hockey buddies at this local craft brew pub called the Barley Merchant — we should actually pop in there for a pint after this — and the owner was there and he talked about there's a local group that he's a part of where it's all these business owners collaborating. If there's a guy that does marketing, they all work together. This group of folks that have the best interests and they meet every month — a "what's on your front" sort of deal. So I've been invited to go to this group, which is pretty fun. But how important is that — having your head down, horse blinders on — how important is it to understand the things going on around you?

[46:24] I love podcasts. And I started a community called the Fractional Officers of Calgary — the FOCers. Essentially it's fractional executives from all different variety of skills, industries, and expertise — marketing, finance, legal, whatever that might look like. And we just come together, share ideas. What's going on in your space, what should we know about, how are you working with clients, what's being effective? Creating those touch points and those collaboration points is super important. And just back to the physical presence and people relationships — share your knowledge, share those opportunities.

[47:02] Yeah. I think we're coming into that age where because we're becoming more specialized, it's in our best interest to share more. Even with competitors — because you're going so niche, there's so much, there's plenty of fish in the sea. I think we win together, frankly. And you brought me this book too — blue ocean, red ocean — it's becoming more of a blue ocean, I think. And the access to tools and things like that — a group of three to five people can really have a hugely impactful business model with even just a small group.

[47:55] Yeah. I think we all have something pretty cool to bring to the table. So how do we find like-minded individuals that we jam with, we've got good energy with? The people that I like to keep around my inner circle — we talked about this — people like you, for example. Like we go through the same battles, the same ups and downs. It's not easy starting companies, doing the kind of work we're doing. And learning from one another, not being arrogant in the idea that we know everything.

[48:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not good communication style. But like I value you and your brother like immensely. I do really take in what you guys have to say. I cherish your guys' friendship more than I think you know.

[48:47] I thought it was just the tequila. Well, you know, that's what's driving it. But no man — I really appreciate you.

[48:56] Man, thanks for being here, coming in. Final thoughts — what's top of mind? What comes to mind when you summarize the whole picture of things?

[49:10] Um, you know, I think it's just — as executive leaders, people leading these companies — a lot of it is around finding that mental space to think about what's next. Getting yourself out of the weeds, giving yourself a little bit of breathing room to consider: how are we going to deal with the change that's coming forward? How are we going to continue growing our company? How are we going to manage more effectively? And too often we just do too much. We don't figure out what's the most important thing to do. But once you do — you kind of limit your scope and you say, listen, this is what I need to do as the leader. You start to open up that space around: hey, I can prepare mentally. I can give enough mental energy to thinking about what's next. And I think every leader needs to be able to do that.

[50:04] I love it. And very importantly — how does one get in touch with you?

[50:10] Yeah. Look us up at switchadvisory.com. Feel free to reach out anytime. We'd love to chat and support your organization. And if it's frankly just some advice and sharing ideas, very happy to do that as well.

[50:32] I've got a direct line to you already. My friend, thank you so much. Been a pleasure. This was great. Let's go get ourselves a pint. I love it. Thank you.

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